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26/5: networks! a look into the future   public01: save before it's gone  


bits from irc moderated by alejandra and yves     print
friday may 26, 2006
tsila what are the conditions to start the network?
vacc initial condition is passion
xname and what about the structure: horizontal vs vertical ...
tsila passion is not enough
vacc it is an initial condition,
tsila passion is the inital condition for every initiative
xname technological development was made possible because of war
xname and the money invested into that
vacc maybe that is true
Sophie_apo working in a net : maybe the concept of networks tends to reduce the analysis we can have on the social relations involved. We should try to differenciate the different levels and forms of social relations involved : collaborative, collective, etc... in which position the individual finds himself in relation with a group or a constellation of people. An interesting work to do could be specify the different levels of relation involved in what we call "network practices" ?
vacc but a social network is not necessarily an 'initiative' when the infrastructure is available
vacc it will boil down to passion
chevil yes use open source, more than saying it's cool
chevil using it is improving it
vacc initiatives token w.o. passion are widespread too
nico i think that it's reducing things to consider networks regarding the issue of information and its circulation. of course, there is this issue, but i agree with sophie. networks, if it means anything deals with ways of making things/being together, etc

Sophie_apo something interesting in the new technological framework is the relation to the "leaving" : first in the fact that the boundaries between artificial and organic tends to disappear, and secondly because "life", like for example cellular processes, become metaphors to think in another way then under the network (technical) dimension, the social relations. See for example Guattari

joke youthtube :
kdag del.icio.us
joke every material is own by youthtube!!
kdag flikr
kdag etc
kdag bussiness models
joke when you put a video there
joke it's not yours anymore
joke it's youthtube proprietary

tsila in view of the uses all this content is being put on by the corporations that provide these paltforms
tsila should users stop participating / contributing to those ?
tsila are there alternatives to such ise of content ?
chevil alessandro said you don't loose copyright on thetube
chevil where did you see this, julien?
joke on their website... I tried all this
joke test it
joke and that have a licence you have to accepted
joke google video same
joke and in myspace.com
joke it was a big news... same a licence
joke take they could own your data whenever their want
chevil i dunno, i'm not exhibitionist )
joke relou man
pueblo i disagree with that chevil
chevil that's an interesting theme to speak about
chevil CC
joke yes
tsila thanks happy
joke how they could be counscious?
joke how they could understand the copyright patent that compagny/foundation put on their content?
joke if they don't know what's the copyright?
joke and it's alternative copyleft?
joke most of the poeple don't look at that
joke I do not agree with Alessandro
tsila he is partially right
pueblo tsila, nico, sophie do you agree with this, stopping boicot and make strange uses of these platforms?
joke business & copyright patent need to be fight
tsila using the platform for "disrupting" information is a good use
tsila so i very much agree with this
joke the best is to hack this website!!!!!
joke cut in this stream!!!
tsila we can also hack the floksonomy
tsila a trivial example:
tsila upload images of cats
tsila with the tag "dog" !
tsila and create also "image google bombs"
joke if you give too much importance even in making strange, you legitimate their content and uses
tsila you put images of monkeys
tsila tagged as george bush"!
joke for what?
joke it's legitimate anyway
tsila in this way you disrupt in "information harnessing"
joke maybe it's better to create an alternative flicker, youthtube...etc
joke and make pub in this websites
Sophie_apo I am personnaly more interested in building alternative platforms and networks then wasting my time making strange uses of proprietarian platforms. The awareness of the users will come from the sharing open practices through dissimination (organising workshops...)
pueblo you are very activa, I like this!
tsila bettter than writing code, or my essay -)
chevil there's nothing better than writing code, if you want to stop consuming
pueblo Sophie, I agree with you I think if you make strange use of these platforms you just prepare exotic plates for the market
tsila i can think of a few better things -)
tsila smoking for example - no ?
tsila i dont agree with this - sophie and ale
tsila because if you use it for strange things
tsila it becomes too much for the machines to handle
tsila machine can't handle the unexpected
Sophie_apo what becomes too much to handle ?
pueblo ow that eventually can change too
tsila information that doesnt follow a logical / rational path
tsila [it becomes exponential
pueblo I think she refers to google bombs for example
tsila and machines can't handle it
tsila lets go back to the trivial example:
chevil forkbomb.pl
tsila if everybody uploads a picture of a cat
tsila and tags it in a different way
pueblo but that‘s how spam works no?
tsila the machine can't tell what it is anymore
chevil let's call a cat a dog
joke yes we talk about spam technik
tsila what do you mean that‘s how spam works ?
joke what‘s the difference
Sophie_apo hijacking is interesting to invent and open new perspectives : alternative is more dangerous for the system then a any kind of "terrorist" action
chevil spam induced big improvements in computer generated poetry
tsila alteratives such as bitorrent ?
joke terrorist action help the system to develop faster
pueblo yes but the market is always looking for new uses
tsila intelligence harnessed by networks operates on large numbers
tsila if we break these large numbers -
joke but it's difficult to repaprioate for example P2P
tsila then intelligence is much harder to collect
tsila but developing alternatives is definitely more interesting
joke the much spread practices

pueblo I wonder if we are gloryfying the network concept. there are networks of human traffic also
junior_isjtar they say it works without the brain
joke interesting for exemple the neural network is new concept
joke who really conceptualised this concept last century?
golgi neural networks in a concept from the '50. As far as I know, introduced by Nicola Rashevsky
pueblo Manuel Castell says that the network as the network infraestructure of the internet and the society that rises from it corresponds to a rejuvenation of capitalism
golgi rashevsky's neural networks were very hard to study...
golgi after him, McCulloch & Pitts introduced a (kind of) simpler version
golgi Finally, the most successful time for neural networks was during the 80s
golgi in a movement called 'connectionism'
chevil i thought neural networks was loosing strength now
golgi The important concept of connectionism (in my opinion) is that of 'distributed representation'
chevil going more into agent-based models
golgi agent-based models were introduced by marvin minsky to artificial intelligence

olm-e lol.. (where is reality... can you show it to me ?)

luka first kind of net art was fishing

golgi in the brain you have both also: short range interactions, and long range connections happy
golgi ... so without real life, internet is just an incomplete network...
pueblo and how do they synchronize? long and short range interactions?
olm-e with reaseaucitoyen we are mixing both type all the time ... meeting on top of roofs to be able to meet by computer later at home...
golgi they are very organised. The main way of organisation is 'topography'
golgi an example of topography is 'retinotopy'
pueblo w:retinotopy
joke w:retinotopy
wikinibot retinotopy
wikinibot 'Retinotopy' is the concept that certain areas of the visual cortex are
wikinibot organized in a way that adjacent points in the visual field (that fall on
wikinibot adjacent points on the retina) are processed by neurons in adjacent parts of
wikinibot that cortical area. As a direct consequence, the receptive fields of neighboring
wikinibot neurons are next to each other (or even overlap) in the visual field.
wikinibot retinotopy
wikinibot 'Retinotopy' is the concept that certain areas of the visual cortex are
wikinibot organized in a way that adjacent points in the visual field (that fall on
wikinibot adjacent points on the retina) are processed by neurons in adjacent parts of
wikinibot that cortical area. As a direct consequence, the receptive fields of neighboring
wikinibot neurons are next to each other (or even overlap) in the visual field.
golgi ... so long range connections kind of reflect short range interactions!
golgi in the mouse brain, there are almost exclusively short range interactions

golgi 'genetic algorithm' is an 'abus de language'....

golgi there are also 'small world networks'
golgi which look a lot like biological networks

luka A multitude of real-world networks have been shown to be scale-free, including:
luka Social networks, including collaboration networks. An example that has been studied extensively is the collaboration of movie actors in films.
luka Protein-Protein interaction networks.
luka Sexual partners in humans, which affects the dispersal of sexually transmitted diseases.
luka Many kinds of computer networks, including the World Wide Web.

Sophie_apo as we discusses yesterday, poietic means "production" in greek. This concept in interesting for me because in puts the focus on the process of production, the way of doing and the techniques involved in the doing more then on the result.
golgi aesthetic was used by kant to refer to 'intuition'...
golgi the intuition of time and space...
golgi which are not learned, but innate...i.e., produced by ourselfs... i.e., poietic
joke poietic & aesthetic are both study of signs
Sophie_apo poiesis in greek
wikinibot poietic
wikinibot 'Esthesic' (UK aesthesic) and 'poietic' are terms used in semiotics, the study
wikinibot of signs, to describe perceptive and productive levels, processes, and analyses
wikinibot of symbolic forms.
joke describe percipetive & production
joke we say the same with the bot
pueblo network aesthetics, what do you think about this sophie?
pueblo i can't stop thinking of networks of traffic of bodies
golgi ... a methodology for aesthetics is like a methodology for intuition ! (sounds impossible to me...)
luka there is also a nietwork estetics
olm-e so there is no methodology for science neither !
luka sometimes wireless is nietwork
pueblo isn't the aesthetics of control?
luka very much
chevil nietwork is a russian concept
Sophie_apo I have some problems with the concept of aesthetics : the history of this concept is to much linked to the concept of art as it was build and thought since the Renaissance : someone refered to Kant. Impossible to understand the new artistic practices with Kant in mind !
luka control of fish, soldiers, tv viewers
luka employees
golgi science is first intuition perseverance... then when you write the papers you present things as if there was a methodology
Sophie_apo the concept of aesthetics as I said yesterday supposes the Subject, in the classical philosophical sense (Descartes and Kant), and a contemplative relation to objects...
lena networks represent relations between people. would easthetics in networks be a reflection on, or validation of these relations in terms of pleasurable / (dis)agreability?
Sophie_apo I agree with you Alej : network is structuraly related to control and power : we can not just differenciate networks...
joke in social network theory, a power network collects many social networks to exercise common influence and "power over" others. Usually it describes the kind of group entity defined in political science or military science, which has a command hierarchy that carries out orders of a well-established, recognized authority
joke FALSE!!!!
joke DNS is controlled by american governement
lena joke, what is your point?
Sophie_apo control does not mean someone is controlling. I think it mainly refers (in the network context) to the security devices that proliferate at every level of social life
luka paul garrin
luka he started name.space initiative
joke In addition to the Internet's main DNS root (currently consisting of 13 nominal root nameservers working in agreement with ICANN), several organizations operate alternative DNS roots (often referred to as alt roots or Dot 2.0). Each alternative root has its own set of root nameservers and its own set of top-level domains (TLDs).
luka was an anarchic attempt to open up all tlds
lena absence of beauty is not ugliness ...
lena beauty is nothing but confirmation to a set of eshetical values. It seems to me that a lot of netart is in fact obeying the recently born rules and regulations. There is a worked out discourse and description of what is and what is not netart. The traditions are there. And the conformists are there too.

golgi what about 'mesh-networks'
luka control is in the hubs
luka usually
luka mesh is maybe when the hubs are many and distributed
golgi the $100 laptops (are supposed to) have a distributed system of network, 'mesh networks'
luka ure the hub today pueblo
golgi $100 laptops will be able to make networks with the computers nearby without any centralisation...
pueblo and im a control freek ahaha
Sophie_apo what interests me in the concept of poietic is the practice of hijacking this control devices : the best example for me is what Stallman did with GNu, using the Copyright system to open an alternative space, against Copyright !

joke how could we return to DNS for ourself?
joke an alternative DNS?
joke first maybe start an some autonomous servers network that work together...
joke or alternativly to the main pipe...
Sophie_apo I think that what said Guy about building our own servers is an important element to created "free" networks, and "crytptage" is also an important element that I think will develop more and more
golgi 'fon' is being funded by google...
joke yes but you have black P2P
joke did he know about it?
joke you can't see the IP
joke that started few years ago...
joke it's 100% unformal P2P network
golgi ... i think data mining is much worse than dns control (for privacy)
golgi (like recorded phone calls in the US... and people seem to support that!)
joke freenet.sourceforge.net/
joke TrustPeer is a secure, "friends only" based peer-to-peer software. The idea is to connect only to friends you really trust, and they will forward files and requests to their own friends, and so on. No direct connection involving the disclosure of your IP address will occur with someone you don't know and trust already.
joke savannah.nongnu.org/projects/trustnet/

joke what about the new french law : DADVI law?
joke against copy?
joke against interportability?
golgi (Event private copy may be forbiden!)
joke eucd.info/index.php?English-readers
joke what about DRM?
it's funny they have to use raw force to contoll the tech networks: imagine that i bought some low cost airline tickets over the internet and few days later the local police called me to confirm the payment
pueblo !!
joke If the law is voted (it still has to approved by the Senat and the Conseil Constitutionnel), the result is :
joke * making P2P illegal
joke * the end of private copy : it will be illegal to copy or rip music or films I have bought. That means I can't have a disc at home and another in the car. I won't either be able to transfer it to my Digital Audio Player. It's also the end of webradios in France.
joke * DRMs become the standard
joke it's an industry fight against everyone
chevil apple too now put trusted computers tech in their products
joke a hudge looby




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